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PART 5

Frequently asked questions

By Elizabeth McKenzie

PART 5

 		 

June 2009

Q. In a recent interview for Interview Magazine, Anthony Hayden Guest asked Damien Hirst the following question, "Other artists have attacked you for using their ideas. John LeKay said the skulls were his idea. John Armleder never actually said it, he's too sophisticated, but that the spots were his idea-that he was doing spot paintings. And some say Walter Robinson did the spin paintings first."

Damien Hirst replied, "Fuck 'em all! Who knows? Before I went to Goldsmiths, I sort of tried to be original. But then there's just so much in the world, and so much of it is derivative. Everything comes from somewhere and it's just such a mish-mash. At Goldsmiths we were kind of freed. You don't have to worry about that! If it looks good, it is good. I remember the fly piece and I remember thinking about the direct references of that. Like Dan Graham for the steel-and-glass, the bus shelter-type things. And Bruce Nauman was in the neons. You know, the fly killer. And then Bacon obviously in the meat. Even Naum Gabo with the flies in space. It's an amalgam, a mish-mash of everything you've ever seen before. Like my medicine cabinets were from Koons.

 

John LeKay. Testilces with cancer tumors for palpation purposes. 1989.
 

Anthony Hayden Guest

  

If you are constantly creating visual things, you are getting loads of ideas from everywhere. I think that there's only been one idea and that was fucking painting your hand red in blood and stamping it on the cave wall. And then, after that, we've all just ripped that off and copied it. But what I think is probably different about our generation is that we never felt the need to be original. That kind of frees you up to do what you want. I mean, like the spot paintings. There was Larry Poons." Anthony Hayden Guest's entire interview here.

How do you feel about Damien's reply to Anthony Hayden Guest's comments?

JL: Well obviously one could read Damien's answer in several ways. However I would rather not read anything into it.

Q. Damien stated in 2006 that, "Luckily for me, when I went to art school, we were of a generation where we didn't have any shame about stealing other people's ideas. You call it a tribute, don't you?"

 What do you think that he is saying by this?

JL.  It speaks for itself.

Q. Damien has stated that "stealing other artist's ideas and not having to be original is liberating".  Do you feel this way as well? (laughs)

 

 Damien Hirst
 

 

Marcel Duchamp

  

 

JL. No, because in reality it's like cheating on your exams. It's reaping what someone else has sowed.  I don't look at any kind of stealing as necessarily liberating or something to shamelessly brag about.  It's an excuse for taking short cuts  It takes much of the work and problem solving out the equation when someone else has already put in the time and effort at originality. Taking something and cleverly tweaking it, knocking it off and putting your own name on it with no reference to where it came from is theft.

Q. Do you believe originality in art is possible or is it all "a mish-mash and derivative" as Damien described it?

JL. Yes and no, originality is possible in art. For example, Duchamp was original, Bruce Nauman is original.  There are many artists out there who have made original pieces. I mean just because something is original doesn't necessarily make it great art. Originality is a question of degree and it all depends on what you mean by original. In a pure sense, there is nothing new under the sun.

Making art does not necessarily have to be like reading from a cooking recipe; taking a bit of this and a dash of that. Because if you do that, it can easily be dissected, broken down, and its parts, roots, elements and foundation will be exposed. People will see right through it.

 
Pharmacy by Joseph Cornel 1943

 

U.G Krishnamurti

For example, take Damien's pharmacy piece. Then take a look at Joseph Cornell's Pharmacy piece from 1943. Looks almost identical to many of Damien's pieces. This is what I mean.  As Damien said "most work is derivative",  but I think there is a line where one is being derivative and one is blatantly imitating or ripping off.

The downside with pursuing a path of originality is that the art world has a tendency towards misoneism. The reality is that being truly original is not good business sense and it does not pay. The pay off seems to be in other artists who come along later on and use these ideas in their own work and dilute them down in some palpable way or another for commercial or political reasons. The original ideas lay down a solid foundation for others to build upon and pave the way.

For example, I read an interesting article in the New York Times about this. It said  "The true way in art is to steal all you can and be very gingerly in putting on your stealings, even as much as a varnish of your own originality." I think that sums it up in a nut shell. See pdf file here.

Q. Damien sued Cartrain for copyright infringement as well as confiscated his work.  Why didn't you follow in the same footsteps and sue Damien for stealing your ideas?

JL.  I've been asked that a lot, but I don't think anyone has a copyright on a Mayan skull. There is a really interesting article here about copyright infringement and the law here by R.J. Preece.    

Q. Did you feel it was copyright infringement?

JL: No, because that sort of thing really doesn't interest me.  For example U.G Krishnamurti is one of my favorite philosophers. He says that none of his work has a copyright and allows anyone to do anything they wish to do with it; sell it, steal it, rip it up or throw it in the garbage.

I like that idea a lot and feel the same way about my work. It really doesn't matter to me anymore because if you really think about it, it all boils down to one's ego making these copyright claims. Ideas come from nowhere and belong to no one, its like trying to copyright the sky. I see it all as being absurd.  I think if someone takes from you, all it means is they need it more than you do. I feel the less you need, the better off you are and I don't have any of those needs.

As far as the other work is concerned, the best case I would have to sue for copyright is the lamb on wood piece, This is my Body this is my blood.  Incidentally that was the piece I was told he got upset about one night after I showed it to him in my studio.  In the 80s I did a whole meat series of them, after Rembrandt and Bacon.

Q. Why do you think Damien was so upset after seeing your work? Do you think it was because you had done this sort of work years before him?

4

 

John LeKay. Samadhi. Sensory deprivation tank 1989

  

 

Interior  see through view of a woman floating. Photo Samadhi tanks

 

JL.  I don't know, but I was told it really bothered him.  I mean really bothered him - to the point of him smashing up the kitchen in the apartment he was staying in, at that time in New York.

The reality is I was doing that sort of work in the 80s; full-bodied animals I mean.

Q. When did this occur?

JL. It was just before he won the Turner prize back in 93.

Q. Where was he staying?

JL. He was staying at the NY painter, Julian Lethbrige's apartment in New York. We were both showing with Tanya Bonakdar at the time and it really complicated matters.

At that point he had done the shark piece, The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of someone living and a Thousand years with the cows head only, (no full bodied animals).   Soon after, he did Mother and child divided, right out of the Biological Science Catalogue book I gave him.  A short time later, he did the piece Away from the flock, in a show I was supposed to be in at the Serpentine gallery in London, entitled Some went mad some ran away.  For some reason, Damien changed his mind and did not include my work.  

Not too long after this my Delirium of the Neutral Angel show was suddenly postponed and later was canceled and things went down hill.

Q. Have you seen the painting of a floating skull Damien Hirst recently exhibited at the Wallace collection in London?

JL. No.

Q. I have to say, it looks like your levitation skulls.  A skull floating in space. In his press release he said. “I like John Ruskin’s idea of art, that there’s an unbroken line all the way back to the cavemen, and we are just the most recent additions.”  

JL: Yes that may be so, but do not have any comment on it this either.

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

John LeKay. Sangulipe II (Bloody gobbet) 2004 - 2005 

Damien Hirst Floating skull 2006
 

 

John LeKay. 2006

 
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